Cali Alpert:
Welcome to Dropping In from Omega Institute, a podcast that explores the many ways to awaken the best in the human spirit. I'm Cali Alpert. Dropping in today, two storytellers with The Moth, the non-profit group based in New York City dedicated to the art and craft of storytelling. Kate Tellers is a senior director, a host of their live storytelling series and Webby award-winning podcast, a storyteller, and a co-author of The New York Times bestseller, How to Tell a Story: The Essential Guide to Memorable Storytelling From The Moth. Her writing has also appeared in McSweeney's and the New Yorker.
Moth storyteller Reverend Dr. Theresa Thames is the Associate Dean of Religious Life and the Chapel at Princeton University, and the founder and Chief Executive Officer of Soul Joy Coaching & Yoga. Born and raised in Biloxi, Mississippi, being a black queer woman from the Deep South informs her sense of the world. Most importantly, Theresa believes that freedom is not optional, rest is her strength, and radical joy is her resistance.

Kate and Theresa, thank you so much for being here, for dropping in with us today. It's so nice to see you.

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Thanks for having me.

Kate Tellers:
Thank you so much. It's great to be here.

Cali Alpert:
So I'd like to start with you, Kate, and hear a little bit about your relationship with storytelling when you were a kid, and just how you came to having such an appreciation for the craft of it.

Kate Tellers:
Well, my last name is Tellers, so it may have been inevitable. Although when I was a kid, I hated that my last name was Tellers because I felt like I was supposed to be telling Aesop's Fables, which I was never really drawn to. But I come from, both of my parents are from very large families, and stories are almost like a form of prayer for us. We repeat them. We repeat them to the degree that we did have an in-law that stopped coming to family events because it was too many of the same stories.

But I really got into storytelling when I was in my twenties, my mother passed away, and it really just forced me to think about... But right after she passed away, we sat. She passed away at home, and I was with our family in the living room, and everyone was telling stories about her. And I remember in particular, my aunt told this story about, she said, "Your mother loved you too so much," which everyone says when your parent passes away. But then she told, she just created the scene and she said, "I remember being at family events, and all the adults would be talking, and she would be on the floor with you two kids." And that was like, that's the image I need to keep her with me.

So I started to become sort of obsessed with legacy and what we leave behind, and aside from the things. And I was a performer at that time. I was doing comedy and standup and other sorts of things, and then doing day jobs to support that. And it wasn't as satisfying. And I heard a story from The Moth on This American Life. This was pre Moth podcast, pre Moth radio hour. And I went to a live event. And a few stories in I just thought, "Well, this is what I've always wanted. This is the most honest theatrical event I've ever been to. I really feel like I'm getting to know every person in this room and we're sharing feelings at the same time." And I was hooked.

Cali Alpert:
Did you know, at the time that your mom was passing and then afterwards when those stories were being shared with you, that that would inform your future? Did you pick up on the idea that that might be paving a path for you at that time? Were you conscious of that?

Kate Tellers:
I mean, I knew the night that my mom died that my entire life would change. She was diagnosed when I was 14, and she passed away when I was 28. So I became an adult with the fear of the loss of my mother. It's fused into who I am, and then the subsequent loss. But I didn't know how that would manifest. And I never dreamed that it would lead me to a career, a life, and a worldview. I had no idea that it would manifest in this way. And I think, honestly, I was just sitting at a temp job listening to podcasts, just trying to be inspired by something. And it was that. I just heard the story and I thought they do this in rooms. And I went to a room.

Cali Alpert:
Theresa, growing up in Mississippi, I know you were surrounded by the idea of folklore and storytelling in your family, right?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Yes.

Cali Alpert:
Is that how, was that your first influence?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Yes. Part of the African American tradition is oral history, telling stories. That's how we hold our history, hold memory. And also growing up in the Black church, that's how I learned Bible stories. And when anything would happen, people would gather on my grandmother's front porch and tell stories. And so this life of stories and storytelling was, it's captivating and enlivened me, and all my life, I've just heard story after story.

Cali Alpert:
Did you have an awareness that you were a storyteller in the making at a young age or did it take some time?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
I would never consider myself as a storyteller, but every report card said, "Intelligent, but talks too much." And so who knew that I would grow up and be, this is what, I get paid to talk. Like my profession is talking. But the idea of storytelling, I didn't understand what that meant. It was just a lived experience.

Cali Alpert:
When did you first realize that you were a storyteller?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
When I became a pastor. Being a pastor of a large downtown congregation, and realizing that people came in for community. And they really wanted to hear the stories of the Bible, but the language was such a barrier, especially the King James version of the Bible. And then it was like, how do we tell the Bible stories as a conversation, and in a way that people can relate to? And I began writing my sermons in the space of a story, moreso than a lecture or a sermon.

Cali Alpert:
So as one of the senior directors at The Moth, Kate, what is it that makes a great storyteller?

Kate Tellers:
Well, a great storyteller ultimately succeeds by being themselves and sharing themselves on stage. And a great story, from that storyteller, is an experience that is true to their experience, true to their lived lives, that has changed them and affected them in a way that they care about. So it has to be a story where the series of events are meaningful to the storyteller and they have to have been affected in some way by them. And then they need to be able to share that in their own voice, not in the voice that they think we need or in a voice that's whatever. It's not a rant, it's not a standup. It is simply someone being themselves on stage.

Cali Alpert:
When someone's telling a story, to your point about the idea of being themselves versus being performative, does craft and/or vulnerability, does one supersede the other in terms of the successful outcome? Or do they equally coexist with each other?

Kate Tellers:
I mean, I think they have to coexist. I think if you're simply vulnerable to the degree that you have no perspective on the experience, if you're just sharing this was a tragic event and I'm just going to share all of my pain, that's not a compelling story. That's something that doesn't connect you with your audience except for that your audience may want to hold you. But if your story is neatly crafted, then you're veering away from truth and vulnerability is the naked exposure of our truth. That's a definition that I just made up, but I would say that I would stand by it. So if it's simply crafting, we have many skilled storytellers in our community that can take any experience and make it into a story. There's a hollowness that comes from that if there's not a real truth at the heart of it.

Cali Alpert:
Do you remember the first time you told your story, one of your stories? And did you recognize, in yourself, a strong storyteller?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
I did. I was really nervous. And it comes from what you just said, Kate. A tragic experience, and I had a little bit of distance from it that allowed me to tell it in a way that I was like, "Oh, this thing is a story that I could share." And it ended up being comical and funny, but also healing for me because I had a distance from this tragedy, this very deep personal tragedy.

Cali Alpert:
Do you mind if I ask you a little bit more about that? Can you talk a little bit about that catharsis process? Did it happen before, during, after?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
It happened a little bit before. My sister died very unexpectedly from meningitis. And telling the story of growing up with her, and her being a little bit older, and all the fun we had, that the story wasn't so much about her death, but this life that we had together. And my sister died on my birthday. And her death on my birthday just gave me this drive of living so that I could have more stories to tell. And so it was centered around, "Oh my goodness, my sister has died." But in stepping back and thinking about the life we lived together, it just transformed the story from being this sad thing to comedy and adventure, comedy and adventures.

Cali Alpert:
Does everybody have a story and does everybody have a story that's worth telling?

Kate Tellers:
Oh, I mean, I fundamentally believe that everyone has a story and a story worth telling. Are they ready to tell the big stories from their lives? Are they a person that would be open to the process of discovering what those truths are and sharing them with a group? I mean, you may have a story and discovering your story might be where that stops. We don't all need to. Of course, I love when people share stories with the world, but storytelling and the process of understanding your story can be valuable simply, personally. Simply for the act of self-discovery.

Cali Alpert:
Meta question, while we're in the space of an interview, are you also, as part of you and storyteller, producer head even, editing or witnessing yourself answering my questions? Or is it easy to just be part of a conversation?

Kate Tellers:
I think in this context it's pretty easy to be part of a conversation because it's something that I love to chat about. It's not, you're not asking me science.

Cali Alpert:
Not yet.

Kate Tellers:
I mean we'll get there and we'll see what we can do. I'm very game. I'm incredibly game.

Cali Alpert:
I don't even know if I'd know how to ask a proper science question, so you're safe.

Kate Tellers:
I have no idea what that question would be.

Cali Alpert:
You're safe. fully creative and maybe we'll get a little mechanical about stories. Theresa, you hold a congregation every Sunday?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Every Sunday.

Cali Alpert:
Does that bring out your storytelling abilities in a similar way or a different way than standing on a Moth stage?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
It's similar. And the one thing about telling a story is being aware of the audience as well. And being a pastor, sermon writing, you write a sermon, and that sermon, you have to be aware of who's in the audience, how it will be received. And then you may write a sermon that's meant for five people, and then there's 500 people in the room or a few thousand people who are coming in virtually. And how do you show up in the space. Throughout the pandemic, I was filming in a gothic cathedral, alone with a camera crew. And so how to relay this very intimately, talking into a camera, with no one in this space. And so the idea of how do I get this across to this audience, whether they're in the room with me, whether it's five people or whether it's thousands of people that I don't see their faces in the moment.

Cali Alpert:
And do you have an answer to your own question?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Yes. I mean it's the power of telling the story and being as present as possible to the moment.

Cali Alpert:
I'd like to hear from you, Kate, how much the zeitgeist of what's going on in society informs the way, the choreography of your events, the choice of storytellers.

Kate Tellers:
So I've been at The Moth for over a decade. We're 25 years old. I think I'm at 14 years. And when I started we were explicitly, internally, like neutral. We don't want stories. It's stories should be something that everyone can take in. If we come to people with an agenda, they'll hear the agenda, and they won't hear it. And we still don't come with an agenda. We want to elevate stories, from people from all walks of life. That being said, we know the danger of neutrality at this point. We've all lived through that. And so we are very actively seeking out stories that challenge dominant narratives. We're seek seeking out stories that come from people who have lived experiences versus observed or been adjacent to experiences. We are looking, when we do hear about something happening, when you're in the zeitgeist, and I'm like, "Where do we begin?" I don't even know what-

Cali Alpert:
I know. It's so loaded.

Kate Tellers:
But we do look for stories that speak to the themes and the issues of what people are experiencing. And we still would never have a story on our stage that would say that's why you vote Kennedy in 2024. We would never ever do that. But we do hope that we have the opportunity to introduce people to people that would otherwise be strangers, and that can perhaps affect and open their worldview.

Cali Alpert:
When we were talking, in preparation for our interview, Theresa, you talked so beautifully and powerfully about the opportunity at a place like The Moth, and the craft of storytelling for lots of different voices to be in the same room. And how storytelling has the ability to break through those barriers of gender and race and politics and all the other innumerable things we could name. Can you speak a little bit more about that? And how much that informs your participation with this organization?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Absolutely. This is a divisive time that we're in. People have strong held beliefs and ideas, and it's easy to engage in passive aggressive arguing, posting things. And to get people in a room to listen to a story, not to come and to argue their side, not to write a thesis statement, but to be in relationship around a story. And hearing people come in to tell their stories, from a different perspective or a different angle, it allows there to be a place of commonality, of intersection. And it really disarms the fuse of coming into battle.

The space that I'm in right now, in higher ed, and a lot of conversations around freedom of speech. People come in ready, they're ready to argue their side. And something happens when they hear someone tell a story. And it may be a word or an experience or a time of day that melts away some of the divisiveness that people can really hear one another. And that is the power of storytelling, that it invites you in, to lean in, to listen. And we do a lot of talking, but not enough listening.

Cali Alpert:
Definitely. And amen to that. And I feel like what I'm also hearing you say is that there's a great opportunity for humanizing way bigger topics that are so difficult to touch in so many other realms and forms of media, right?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Absolutely.

Cali Alpert:
Just the idea of people probably being able to recognize themselves in most stories they hear. Or some nugget inevitably is going to touch them. Is that your experience?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Absolutely. Also relationships matter. No matter what we believe, there's a place of human relationship and connection that's so important. And when someone tells a story about their grandparent, you start thinking about your own relationship with your own grandparent. And those relationships allow people to have conversations about the possibilities of relationships, friendships that you didn't even know could be possible. And I say that my work is not to have equal consensus across the board, but how do we build community through storytelling and relationships? It's possible. It's not magical. It doesn't solve all the world's problems. But it gets people talking in a different tone, in a different tenor. And the ability to say there's possibility there that I didn't even know could be possible.

Cali Alpert:
Do you feel, Kate, and does The Moth feel a responsibility to lean further into what's going on right now? I know you were saying earlier that the intention was always to be neutral, and that now the time screen for that to not be the case. But does it add a pressure to your organizing and the choreography of all these events and choices that you're all making?

Kate Tellers:
Yes, of course. Sure. I think with everything that's happening in the world, I think what we learn is that there's a lot of, to speak to the divisiveness, is that people don't understand on a human level what's happening with people that are not living their same lived experience. So it has, and also we are, by nature, any of us at The Moth are big hearted, very curious people that want to discover the world, that want to hear the other stories, that want to sort of understand. So certainly it has driven us to discover voices that people aren't hearing, that touch communities that we don't already have a presence in. Certainly it's lit a fire under us. I mean, we're all storytelling evangelists and we do believe that it can change the world.

Cali Alpert:
What do you say to people... Theresa, I'll start with you. What do you say to people that might not have stitched their own story together? Or haven't opened their ears yet to hearing other people's stories because they just aren't interested, they don't have the bandwidth, they haven't been exposed yet? Is there something you would say to them to spark interest?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Oh, tell your story. Just tell your story. That's one of the reasons why I love The Moth so much, is that you don't have to have a degree, you don't have to have a background. You don't have to be an actress or a professional. It invites you to tell a story in your vulnerability. And I think a lot of times people step back from telling stories because they don't think, they think they have to have it right and perfect. And it's just this gift of sharing yourself and the vulnerability of it. And once you hear someone else tell a story, it gives you a little bit of courage to tell your own. And so I would tell people, start talking, and hear other people tell their stories. The podcast, The Moth podcast, is so great. Even if you can't make it to a physical show, listening to the podcast, catching the radio hour. And stories don't have to be long, lots of minutes. Even the tiny stories just takes your breath away.

Cali Alpert:
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Kate, can you speak to the mechanics of the storytelling process and how you help your tellers to craft their stories?

Kate Tellers:
Moth events are a solitary microphone where the storytellers stands, and then we have a musician on stage that acts as the timekeeper since they don't use notes. And it is very exciting to be on stage. Should the story run long, the musician can play them. We find our storytellers in all sorts of different ways, which does inform the process. So sometimes people will come to us and say, "I wrote this story and I wonder if it would work on stage." And then would, you're starting with kind of knowing pieces of what will be there. Sometimes we'll hear recording of someone at an open mic event, and we'll say that story that they didn't quite work. But I love their voice and I bet if we ask them more questions... There's all sorts of different ways. But once we start working with a storyteller, it is, going back to what Theresa was saying too, is so much of it is about just asking people questions and being curious.

I mean, it is a bold and important act to actively listen to someone. And so people, it becomes a volley. And I think people find their stories by actually hearing that what they have to say is interesting and important. So we ask them questions and ask them questions until we feel like we have some sort of an idea of what the story is. So we'll talk to someone and say, "Okay, so we're going to tell the story about you finding a home during COVID, and the process of doing it. Then we start to think. Well, then we sort of map it out. So we'll start where you live now. We'll end, we know we're going to end in the home that you found. And then sometimes the storyteller will write it out, like an essay, and send it to me. Sometimes I'll write out just the beats of the story, and we start to tinker and close in. And then we'll get on the phone again, and talk through it, and say, "Maybe we need a scene here. Maybe we need the..."

Until we feel like, I don't know, it's coherent, it's together. Sometimes we work with storytellers over a couple of sessions for a show that's happening in the next month. Sometimes we have people, we call them, we have stories cooking. So you have a conversation with someone. It's sort of abstract and we say, "Just go back and think about it." And then months later, you pick up the converse... "Oh, I'm going to be in the city near you. Should we?" There's no, everyone is always asking me to boil down the process. "How many times do I need to think about my story? It's ready." Which it just isn't. Ultimately you tell it because the director has determined that it is in a good place, and because the show is happening.
And then we do a live rehearsal where all of the storytellers meet each other. For a lot of storytellers, it's the first time that they've had an audience for their story beyond their director. And for a lot of storytellers, that means it's the first time they've ever had an audience ever. Even though it's just five, six people in a room.

Cali Alpert:
So brave.

Kate Tellers:
Yeah, and it is as we'll always say, when we tell storytellers, we play houses that are thousands of people, or we go to theaters where there are thousands of people, and people will be thrown off. And I'm always like, "The more people in the room, the more people that will love you." I always want the bigger house, but I think it frightens people. But I will say that the rehearsal is the harder. I mean you can speak to that experience, is the scarier share than the show. In the show, you have just hundreds of people loving you up. So they share the story in rehearsal, and then one or two days later they go on stage and share it on stage.

Cali Alpert:
Theresa, can you put your finger on what being in the room at a Moth event feels like?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
It's contagious joy. It really is. I recently did a Moth show in Anchorage, Alaska, and it was in February, so cold, dark. And we'd been through COVID, and we've taken for granted that we could gather. We've taken for granted that we can be with people. And so I say that to say the room was electric. It was a sold out crowd. People were ready. They were hungry to hear a story. They were ready for it. And as soon as the first storyteller started, people were in it, the laughs and the sighs... And people just love being together and hearing stories. So it's contagious joy. And it is so much love and so much energy, and you feel it in the room. And I've missed that. I've been talking in empty spaces. And so to be in front of a live audience again, and to feel and see people light up in real time, not on a Zoom delay, it's a gift. It really is a gift.

Cali Alpert:
Do you think, to that point, that people are looking for inspiration, education, community, all of the above? Do you have a sense of that, now from your storyteller head? When you're in the room, do you sense what people need? Does it matter to you, as one of the performers?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
I don't take for granted. I don't like to waste people's time. And we're always so busy. So what does it mean for someone to leave wherever they are, to buy a ticket to show up and be in the room with other people, and then the gift of being present in a room. So I think people want to be together. People want connection. And as a storyteller, I am there to connect, not just to tell my story. But the power of a story is that it's connecting and you can see it connecting with people. And then afterwards people come up, and they'll point out something, or they'll tell you their story, or they'll tell you the time they were in that place. And so I think people come out because they want to be together. You could stay home, and watch commercials, and get stories all day long. But being to physically together, we appreciate that more now than I think we ever have before.

Cali Alpert:
Kate, I'd love to hear from you. What do you say to people that have a story that they want to share, in whatever realm? They just want to get more in touch with their own voice. What are the first steps?

Kate Tellers:
Probably the first thing from knowing kind of what you want to talk about, and getting into what I would call a compelling story, is starting to think about what are the scenes that I need to anchor my audience in? And so when someone is looking for any story from their lives, one of the things we say to them very early on is, "In the movie of your life, what are the scenes that you would have to include?" And that just gets people to think specifically about where they want to land it. And then you start to think about, "Well then how do I connect those? And how do those scenes, those moments, who am I before and after them?" What is the shape of the, you start to get into the shaping of the story.

We wrote our book, our fourth book, How to Tell a Story: The Essential Guide to Memorable Storytelling from The Moth, 700 times in the past two months. We dedicate that book to the untold stories in all of us. And we hope the book is a very practical look at like, let's say you think you have a story, or maybe you think you don't, here are prompts. Now that you have this, what's the next step? What's the next step? And you can sort walk through and think. And creating a story is non-linear. The book is organized in a pretty intuitive way, but for a lot of people they might jump to chapter five and then jump back to chapter two. You just have to start with thinking about, if I have a story, if I have an experience that I know has changed me, how do I anchor it and start to specify it for the amount of time that I have to share it.

Cali Alpert:
I loved what you said earlier though also about the idea of listening. How you prompt and coax the stories out of your storytellers as you're working with them.

Kate Tellers:
Yeah.

Cali Alpert:
Can you speak to the importance of listening?

Kate Tellers:
Absolutely. I mean, we always say, stories beget stories. And at The Moth, if you come to one of our shows, you'll see that the storytellers sit in the audience. And I mean we're very low-fi in many ways, but that's not just because we don't want set pieces. It is because we want to communicate this idea that everyone in this room has a story. It just so happens that these five people are going to be the people that share them first. But the dream is that you'll hear those stories, and not the dream, I mean, our dreams have come true.

People hear stories, but then they relate to that. And then they turn to the person next to them and they say, "Well, I saw myself in this," or "I didn't," or "I didn't realize that this was an experience that could happen." We stand by our mission, which is we celebrate the diversity and the commonality of the human experience. And that idea that someone can tell a story that's about a series of events, that might open our eyes to a series of circumstances we've never heard before. But a great story also has a common human thread. So we may not have ever had the experience, but we felt alone. We felt heartbreak. We've fallen in love. These common feelings that exist as part of the human condition that will resonate with someone and prompt something that then they can share.

Cali Alpert:
I'd like to ask both of you this question. I'm sure it's not the first time you've been, that, Kate, that you've been asked this. Theresa, I'd like to start with you. Do you have an outstanding Moth moment? A story you heard that sticks with you more than many or most others?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Absolutely.

Cali Alpert:
Excluding your own.

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
No, absolutely. It's the story from a comedian. It was about, I think it was entitled The Best of Times and the Worst of Times. And this comedian's daughter was dying, and his comic career was rising. And he would tell stories, he was telling jokes on television, getting deals. And then his daughter, his young daughter, had cancer. And so this place of making people laugh and also trying to keep together his family. And every time I hear that story, I'm just like... Because a lot of us know what it's like to have public lives and we're performing, and then have private lives that are eating us alive. Uh. Just now thinking about it.

Kate Tellers:
Yeah.

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
I love that story.

Kate Tellers:
Anthony Griffith. Yeah.

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Love it.

Kate Tellers:
So good. So good.

Cali Alpert:
I won't ask you what your favorite story is because that's probably not a question I can ask you, or that you can answer. I can ask you, do you have standout recently that moved you?

Kate Tellers:
Part of my job is that I sort of just fall in love with people over and over again. And I have this enormous privilege where people come to me and then are just like, I'm going to dump my life out. We always say it's dumping a purse out onto the bed and then picking up pieces. That people just dump their lives out and you make sense of it. I'll tell you this, this is slightly abstract, but slightly specific, and not recent, so edit as you go.

But in my early times of teaching workshops, and this is an experience that just solidified it for me, that has played out in different forms since then. Part of my job is that I go into different businesses, and they use storytelling both as a communication tool, as a way to build internal culture, as a way to connect people that work together. And that can be hard for people because they are in a professional environment, and they have this person from an arts nonprofit coming in and saying, "Be vulnerable." So it's daunting for me because there's, what I always felt, something I needed to break through.
So I had a small breakout group and everyone was sharing. And there was a guy, arms crossed, who said, "I don't have a story." And I remember saying to him, I just felt like it was stoic, like I just have to crack this person. And I said something like, "I know you've had changes in your life." And I said, "Can you tell me? I heard you're a parent. Is there anything? That's a transition from being not a parent to a parent." And it was just the question. And he was like, "Oh." And he told this heartbreaking but gorgeous story about when their child was born, it was a difficult labor. And he thought at one point he'd lost his wife. And it was so human and so vulnerable. And everyone in the room, at that point, had shared, and he sort of pushed us to a different space. And I just thought, "This is why we do this. This is not what the energy of this room felt like when I walked in." And all of these people have just softened, together, in this sharing.

And it made me, it's what excites me when I go into places, particularly in businesses that don't know us necessarily in the same way that other people do. That I get to be that sort of gateway into, okay, this is a different way of speaking with the people that you're with every day.

Cali Alpert:
Just the opening up process. The word that's looping in my mind right now is intimacy. The idea that you are flooded by that all the time. It sounds like you're creating, all the time, is a safe place for people to be intimate and vulnerable.

Kate Tellers:
I love to laugh and cry with strangers. It's the greatest thing. I mean to the point where my co-authors tease me about saying this because I say it so much. But I will say that first night at The Moth, the theme beginnings, what really hooked me is I felt like everyone in the room was breathing the same breath. And again, I'd been in theater for years, and I knew how to get on a stage and make someone laugh, but that felt like an exchange. And this felt like just this connection, where every one of us was just completely present, sometimes laughing, sometimes crying, sometimes quiet, as these 10 strangers got on stage and told the truth about themselves. And that to me is so exciting, that we can can feel that connection to so many people at once.

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Storytelling is gift and it's holy. When someone shares with me their story, as a pastor, people tell me like the valleys of their lives, and I'm with them on the peaks of life. And when people share their story, it is this intimate space. And it's holy. It opens up people to this vulnerability that I want to handle it delicately. And so I'm so appreciative when someone gifts me their story. And what you just said, it's delicious.

Kate Tellers:
It's delicious.

Cali Alpert:
So question for each of you, Kate. First, do you believe that storytelling has the power to change the world?

Kate Tellers:
I absolutely believe that storytelling has the power to change the world. I don't know. I mean, people largely change the world. And I don't know a better way to truly and authentically change a person's perspective than to let them connect, in a real way, with someone else's perspective. And you said, you spoke so nicely, Theresa, about relationships. And I think it's partially relationships and it's partially, it's a way that we learn that goes beyond memorization. It is a way that we learn as our whole selves about other people in the world.

Cali Alpert:
Heart space, overhead space.

Kate Tellers:
Mm-hmm.

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Mm-hmm.

Cali Alpert:
Do you believe it has the power to change the world?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
It is, and it will. When our children are small, we tell them stories. We help them to imagine a different world. And in our storytelling, that's what we're doing. We are helping people to craft a narrative for a world that is possible. And the more we tell stories, the more we combat the popular narrative that's out there, we are making way in the middle of no way. And it is what will save us.

Cali Alpert:
Making way in the middle of no way. Can I quote you?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Absolutely.

Cali Alpert:
You're so beautiful. That's so beautiful. Wow. I have three questions that I like to ask all of our Dropping In guests.

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Okay.

Cali Alpert:
I'd like to grant you one wish for our listeners and viewers.

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Grace. Grace to try again, to show up, to be present to their lives and to people around them.

Cali Alpert:
Kate, what's one thing you'd wish for yourself?

Kate Tellers:
For myself? Grace. No, I won't steal your answer, Theresa. It's so good. What do I wish for myself? Just presence. Simply to be present in all of the beauty and complexity of what is happening right now.

Cali Alpert:
And then finally, Theresa, what is one thing you'd like our viewers and our listeners to take away from this conversation today?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Joy. The joy of life and storytelling and relationships.

Cali Alpert:
You two blow me away. I could cry and laugh all at the same time here. This is the most goosebumps I've had in one hour in a really long time. I'd ask both of you, if our viewers and our listeners would like to find out more about you individually, more about the work of The Moth. Where shall they find you?

Kate Tellers:
So the easiest way to find The Moth is themoth.org. You can listen to our podcasts on all podcasting platforms. And you can find me, I guess now I'm really doing Instagram @theKateTellers on Instagram, if you need me specifically.

Cali Alpert:
Theresa?

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
You can find me on Instagram, theresa_s_thames, and my website theresathames.com.

Cali Alpert:
Thank you both so much. What a gift talk with you today.

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Thank you.

Kate Tellers:
Thank you.

Cali Alpert:
So appreciate your time. Thank you.

Rev. Dr. Theresa S. Thames:
Thanks.

Cali Alpert:
Thanks for dropping in with Omega Institute. If you like what you hear, tell your friends, and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps new listeners find us. If you'd like to see what we look like, watch the video version of Dropping In on Omega's YouTube channel. Dropping In is made possible in part by the support of Omega members. Omega members enjoy a host of beneficial experiences when they donate to help sustain Omega's programming. To learn more, visit eomega.org/membership. And check out our many online learning opportunities, featuring your favorite teachers and thought leaders, at eomega.org/onlinelearning.

I'm Cali Alpert, producer and host of Dropping In. Our video editor is Grannell Knox. The music and mix are by Scott Mueller. Thanks for dropping in.