Cali Alpert:
Welcome to Dropping In from Omega Institute, a podcast that explores the many ways to awaken the best in the human spirit. I'm Cali Alpert. Dropping in today, Dan Millman. Dan is a former world champion athlete, university coach, martial arts instructor, and self-described down-to-earth spiritual teacher. After a 20-year quest, Dan's teachings took form as the peaceful warrior's way. He has written 18 books, most notably his 1980s spiritual classic, Way of the Peaceful Warrior, which inspired a feature film starring Nick Nolte. Dan's latest book, Peaceful Heart, Warrior Spirit, is also his first memoir in which he shares the true story of his journey for meaning in the modern world. Dan, thank you so much for dropping in today. It's such a pleasure to meet you.

Dan Millman:
I do love that term, "dropping in," Cali. And it's nice to drop in here with you.

Cali Alpert:
You've spent the better part of the last four to five decades on your personal journey. Did you set out intentionally to have a spiritual quest?

Dan Millman:
Oh, I can answer that so many different ways. I believe we're all on a spiritual quest, whether someone would use that phrase or not consciously or unconsciously. We're all seeking fulfillment, happiness, sense of purpose, direction, connection. And so, my quest opened up gradually. Who knew that liking to jump up and down on a trampoline would end up leading to all that followed? But I believe my athletic training in gymnastics and that performance element was not just a preparation for spiritual practice, but was my first spiritual practice. It taught me about the necessity to be present in this moment. It taught me about process and what was necessary in terms of growing.

So, it became a master metaphor, so to speak. And that was the beginning. But again, it was about gymnastics sport. And I loved self-improvement. I took speed reading and speed mathematics and memory courses and sleight of hand and martial arts and acrobatics. But I think the shift happened when I realized, no matter how much I improve myself, only one person benefited. But if I could somehow help improve the lives of more people, that made my life more meaningful. And that was exciting. Though, I had no idea how I might do that at the time. I didn't really have an idea about writing a book or books or speaking. But I think that was the beginning of a calling as a teacher, because from that point on, everything I learned and I continued to seek and explore, everything I learned was something I could share in my own words, in my own way, with other people. Though, that way hadn't developed, yet.

Cali Alpert:
Did you know that you had a writer in you at that time when you were so focused on your gymnastic career, trampoline career, acrobatic career, martial arts career? Did you know that you had an inner writer?

Dan Millman:
Not really. I think, in around the 10th grade in school, we were to write a short story every week. And mine read a lot like a Twilight Zone fan fiction. But it was the first time I discovered that penchant for a liking to create stories. But there was a latency period of 10 years after that where I never even occurred. To me, even a 10-page paper most people can relate was intimidating. So, no, it really hadn't come to me yet. It took a number of experiences. And well, I trained with four... As I described in my new memoir, I worked over 20-year period intensively with four different mentors, radically different characters, master teachers who had different approaches to what we call spiritual practice in life.

And it was only after working with the first two that I felt ready to compose some kind of book. And when I was a professor at Oberlin College in Ohio, I was teaching a course in martial arts, specifically Aikido and Tai Chi, it was an introductory course and I naturally was going to call it the way of the warrior. But I didn't quite fit because these are more internal arts, more receptive. So, a light bulb went on. And I said, why don't I call it the way of the peaceful warrior? And that was the first time that term organically came into my life. And it was years later when I wrote the book, I said, why don't I call it that, way of the peaceful warrior? And that's how it took shape.

Cali Alpert:
When you first came up with that terminology, "peaceful warrior," what did it mean to you? Because there's such a duality, at least from the outside looking in until you can maybe become more familiar with the integration of those two things that they're not so mutually exclusive.

Dan Millman:
They seem like an oxymoron. How can you be peaceful and a warrior?

Cali Alpert:
Yeah. So, what did that mean to you then as opposed to what it means to you now?

Dan Millman:
Well, I was influenced also of my friend, Ed Spielman, wrote a TV series called Kung Fu with the archetypal Kwai Chang Caine played by David Carradine. And he was a peaceful Shaolin monk, a healer, and believed in non-violence. And yet, I guess his contract, his TV contract, was such that he had to show his warrior credentials every week reluctantly. And so, he was the archetype of the peaceful warrior. But I also drew somehow, maybe not consciously, on people like Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Jr., people who had a peaceful heart, but also at times had to show a warrior's spirit to really stand up and tackle the challenges of the world.

And since then, I've come to view everyone as a peaceful warrior in training because we're all seeking that sense of serenity, equanimity among the chaos of the daily news. But also, we recognize there are times we need to bring that warrior spirit into our lives in everyday life. So, that's how it developed over time. But when I wrote the book, I actually didn't have all those insights. It just seemed like a good approach and a good title, intriguing. And it only evolved over time.

Cali Alpert:
It's interesting how, on some level as you're talking, it sounds like some part of you knew before you knew.

Dan Millman:
Yes, exactly.

Cali Alpert:
It was almost like a foreshadowing of what was to come and then you stepped into the rest of it by writing the book.

Dan Millman:
That is spot-on.

Cali Alpert:
It's very cool. I'd like to go back to what you were referencing earlier about your preparation and the focus of your early career as an athlete. You've talked about how that self-focus might have been a concern for you in terms of precluding you from being more of an activist. And outside your door as you were at University of California Berkeley in those days, Telegraph Avenue is where the 1960s counterculture was born. Did you grapple with that?

Dan Millman:
Well, I did. And I like to tell a story about the old literary mentor, Socrates and I, we were walking down the street in Berkeley on Telegraph Avenue. And I saw a poster about starving children, oppressed peoples, and of course the Vietnam War, which was still going on. And I said, "Socrates, I'm doing all this work on myself, self-analysis, self-subjugation, meditation, inner work, naval gazing." And you know what I said? "I feel selfish or guilty or something because there's so many people in need out there. I want to be more active socially, join my friends in protesting and so on." And he stopped and turned to me and said something, a complete non-sequitur. He said, "Dan, take a swing at me." And I went, "What?" "Did you hear what I was just saying?" He said, "Come on, I'll give you $5 if you can slap me on the cheek."

So, I started bobbing and weaving. And then, I took a swing at him and found myself on the ground in a rather painful wrist lock. And as he let me up to my feet, he said, "You notice a little leverage can be very effective?" And I said, "Yes, Soc, I noticed it." He said, "Well, do what your heart tells you. If you want to help people, do what you can, but don't neglect the work on yourself, so you can develop the clarity to know how to exert the right leverage at the right place at the right time." And that's what I've been striving to do ever since. So, what that story conveys for me is it's not either, or. It's both, and. We need to do the inner work to prepare ourselves to be more effective in the world. And that's, again, I think, a wise teaching story because of that.

Cali Alpert:
It's something we talk about here at Omega a lot, which is where personal growth intersects with social change. I think what I'm hearing you say is that personal growth in and of itself is enough. Is that fair to say? Do you feel that way or do you feel both need to ultimately co-exist with each other?

Dan Millman:
Well, there's a story about a young girl who was excited to have her father come home from work. And she said, "Daddy, can we play a game together?" And he said, "I'm really tired, honey. But let me rest for a few minutes." She said, "Oh, please, let's play." And he said, "I'll tell you what." And he took a page out of a magazine and tore it out and the page had a picture of the Earth on it. And he ripped it up into about 20 pieces. And he said, "Here's some transparent tape. When you can put this jigsaw puzzle back together again, then I'll be ready to play with you," thinking it would give him a few minutes, 20 minutes or so. But she came back less than five minutes later with the picture all put back together. And he said, "How did you do that?" She said, "Oh, it was easy, daddy. I noticed there was a person on the other side of the page. And when I put the person together, I put the world together."

And that story is a metaphor for me. That's why I remembered it over the years. Because if Earth, Gaia, let's say, is a living creature floating in space, this blue green living being, each of us are cells on the body. So, the better each cell is, the better it is for the whole body. And it could be argued that we have more control over and more responsibility, therefore, for doing what we can to become that best cell, that best self. So, I think personal growth does fulfill the sense we can be kinder then to people around us in our immediate environment. You know, the saying, think globally, act locally. So, I think just being kind to people around us, being a good role model, an example. Albert Schweitzer said, in influencing other people, example is not the main thing, it's the only thing.

So, by doing our own work on ourselves, it doesn't absolve us our actions in the world, but many people are motivated by guilt and "That I should be doing something. I should be doing something." But what? And how effectively are they going to be doing it? But if they come from a calm place, a lot happens with minimum activity and minimum thoughts, just their actions flow into the world more.

Cali Alpert:
I think that a lot of people now, because the world is in such a challenged place that's so pronounced these last few years and there's so many ills to contend with, that it can be very overwhelming for people to know which way to go. Do I need to show up more for my neighbors and to make my community better? Or do I need to sit in my quiet space and meditate a little bit more so I can get myself more fortified? And I think people grapple with that a lot.

Dan Millman:
Many people in relationships or they've had a relationship break up, and I've experienced that in my life as I write about in the latest book, they need to get themselves together, because the better they are, the different people they attract into their life. Wherever you go, there you are. So, they bring more of themself into that relationship and, also, our relationship with the world. I have a lot to say about the daily news because there's always going to be daily news. One of the classic beginning lines of any book in literature is Dickens' Tale of Two Cities. "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times..." And he goes on with a number of contradictory pairs of phrases.

And both of those we could argue are true today, not just 1857, I think, when the book was first published. Today, well you and I could give evidence why it's the best of times. We could also give evidence why it's the worst of times. This sense of paradox has only come to appreciate more deeply recently. And it's been reflected in one or two of my books, the paradox, peaceful warrior, having our head in the clouds but our feet on the ground, the idea of combining the Eastern solution to happiness and the Western solution to happiness. One is more extroverted, success, achievement. The other is more inner-directed, doing inner work on ourselves. But we're here to integrate all of that into a balanced whole.

And so, many of us who are concerned with the news, and the news is designed to point out the pain in the body of earth, just like, if our body feels good but our knee is sore, our attention goes there. That's where we need to put our attention to help take care of that and improve it and heal it, in the same way the media points out the areas of the world. So, it can seem like a negative type of experience listening to the news. But if we stop and step back for a moment and look out the window, we probably hear a bird singing and trees, leaves rippling in the wind, depending on the time of year and, maybe, some traffic going by and life going on in our daily lives. And we get less overwhelmed and we come back to this moment and our own personal space and direct moment. It's important to remember both, because today we know all the ills all over the world. And we don't have control over that, so it can be frustrating to many of us and disheartening. And many people today are frustrated and a little depressed, the post-truth era.

And so, I think it's important to come back to our grounded reality here and now. There's a quick story about this fellow who was playing golf. And he sliced the ball over a fence, an ivy-covered fence. And he heard something on the other side of the fence but didn't think too much about it. When he finally finished and was putting out on the final green, he saw police people and firefighters. And they came up to him and said, "Are you the fellow who sliced the ball over the fence in the 17th Fairway?" He said, "Oh, yeah, I did." And they said, "Do you know what happened?" He said, "No." They said, "Well, it went through the windshield of a car and it crashed. Nobody was injured, but the car totally blocked the road. The fire trucks couldn't get to a fire, a house burned down." Again, nobody hurt, but still, they said, "What are you going to do about it?" And he thought for a minute and said, "I think I'll have to move my grip a little to the left," because that's all he could do. That was in his control.

And I think, today, we need to know that what's in our control, we're responsible for. What is not in our control, we can't be responsible for. So, we can only interact with people in our immediate environment. And remember that. A man came to me once after reading Way of the Peaceful Warrior and said, "Dan, now I'm really interested in spiritual practice, but I'm married. I have a wife and three children and a full-time job. How can I find the time?" And he came to understand that his wife, his children, his full-time job demand more and develop more than sitting in a cave and meditating. I usually add, I know this is true because I've done both. His family, his job were his primary spiritual practices. So, the type of approach to spirituality that I teach is integrated seamlessly in everyday life. Daily life is a form of spiritual weight training. You don't lift any weights, you don't get any stronger. And daily life will teach us all we need to learn to evolve.

People were evolving before books and seminars, but people sometimes ask me, "Well, wait a minute, Dan, why do you write books then and teach seminars?" Because any input that I can offer, any teacher can offer might help people to learn the lessons of daily life more gracefully, less painfully. And as it turns out, and this is more radical, perhaps, because you see, I think many people interested in personal growth, spiritual growth, deep down what they're yearning for is to feel bad less of the time and to feel good more of the time. And so, people who promise good feeling are very popular. And as it turns out, the arising emotions are like weather patterns of the body. They just arise and pass through us. And we don't have any more control over what emotions arise, moment to moment, than we do over the passing weather.

And the same thing with our thoughts, we don't have spam filters in our heads. We can't hold onto a thought indefinitely or not have a thought happen. I often joke with people and say, I have a perfect master technique for being obsessed. Just try not to think about something all day. So, the fact is we don't really have a lot of control. Thoughts happen to us. We don't say, "I think I'll think this thought next." They just appear in our field of awareness, the random discursive mind. Obviously, we can use our mind and our intellect to remember grocery lists and write poetry and so on, but I'm talking about the random thoughts that appear. Sometimes, they're positive. Sometimes, we'd call them negative.

We actually don't have a lot of control over that. And so, when we recognize that, we spend less time concerned with trying to fix our emotions, fix our thoughts, and fix our insides ironically, and we focus on what we have more control over, which was what we actually do, how we behave moment to moment. If I were to intend to touch my nose, I could do that. I intend it and my arm starts moving. So, how we move our arms and legs and behave moment to moment, really, is a key to simplifying our life.

Cali Alpert:
And now a word about Omega Teachers Studio. Get ready to be inspired from your very own cushion, yoga mat, or couch. Omega Teachers Studio brings your favorite teachers direct to you, live and online from their studios, for one-plus-hour classes on topics that matter the most. They're easy to fit into your schedule and affordable, too. Learn more at eomega.org/studio. To receive a 10% discount on any teacher's studio tuition, enter the code DI10 when registering. That's the letters "D" and "I" and the numbers one and zero. Now, back to our episode.

There are innumerable life lessons that you have come up with and shared with your students and readers over the many years, but I just chose a few to talk about. And the first one, happily, is that most troubles are self-created. So, can you speak to that and why we humans do such a good job of creating our own troubles?

Dan Millman:
Well, there's that famous Mark Twain quote. "I've had many troubles in my life, most of which never happened." Because most of our troubles are either what we call the past or what we call the future. But the past is passed, by definition. It's no longer with us, except we keep it alive as a set of neural impulses we call memory. And someone might say, "No, I know the past is real, Dan. I have a picture of my last birthday at my birthday party." But all that's happening is they're showing me a visual image right in this moment of what they call the past. Same with the future, it's our imagination.

And it's been said many ways by many teachers. But when we start to realize that it's not about learning some technique of focusing on the present, our body can only be in the present. It's the mind, the attention that flips back and forth. And most of our troubles again are not in this moment. If I were to take a set of key car keys or a ball and throw it to somebody and say "catch," when they're reaching for that ball, they have a cat-like awareness back to the present moment, or they drop the ball. And so, as they reach for it, they're not thinking about what they did earlier today or what they're going to do tomorrow. They're in this moment. And in this moment, there may indeed be a problem. Maybe, a house is on fire and they have to escape and do something. But most of our troubles, again, are not in this present moment. Most of the time, we can handle what's in front of us. So, that's why it's a very important practice to remember more and more, the illusory nature of the past and future. Future never comes. It's always the future. There's no such thing as future happiness.

Cali Alpert:
Another one of your life lessons, if we could call them those, is the idea of the value of the empty mind. But how does one empty their mind? And what does it feel like to have an empty mind, assuming that you know?

Dan Millman:
My mind's pretty empty, I don't know how to respond. No, actually, I think it's a sort of illusion, in a way, that we have to quiet our mind and empty the mind and achieve a sense of void. Now, people have experiences in meditation where 20 or 30 minutes or longer go by in a flash and then go, "Where was my mind? It was empty." That experience of the void in the spiritual traditions, it's referred to as. But I don't think that's a proper goal, because I think whenever we're absorbed in anything... Now, for me it was athletics. When I was doing gymnastics, I wasn't thinking about much. I was just pure awareness when I was swinging around the bars. That's a beginner's practice. But just sitting and having that absorption is much more challenging. So, I think many people think they're failing in meditation because the thoughts are going by. But that's supposed to happen because we begin to get a distance from those thoughts, the random noise, the yada-yada mind.

So, I think the idea of, how can I empty my mind, I think is, perhaps, a wild goose chase. By being absorbed in whatever we do, whether it's athletics, playing a musical instrument, throwing a Frisbee, even a video game, how many people love that because it absorbs them in the moment and they're not really thinking about anything. They're just focused on what they're doing. So, that's where we find what we call the quiet or empty mind by being absorbed in whatever we're doing.

Now, when we can be absorbed... Well, let me tell another story, I think, that responds to it. Socrates and I, just the two of us in the gymnasium after I've recovered from my shattered leg, as I describe in my first book. And I'm swinging around the bar and I do some kind of full twisting double somersault. And I stick my legs.

Cali Alpert:
As we do.

Dan Millman:
As we do. I stick my landing, which is a good thing. And I go, "Yes." And I figured that's a good place to stop for the evening. So, I tear off my sweatshirt, throw it in my workout bag. And soon after, Socrates and I are walking down the hallway. And he turns to me and he says, "Dan, that last move you did was really sloppy." And I go, "I don't understand, Soc. It was the best dismount I did in weeks." And he said, "I'm not talking about the dismount from the high bar, I'm talking about the way you took off your sweatshirt and put it in your bag." And that's when he pointed out, once again, that I was treating one moment as special and another moment as ordinary.

But then he added something. And I actually got this line into the movie version of the book, just before they started shooting. He said, "Dan, the difference between us is you practice gymnastics, I practice everything." And that was a doorway for me, because I thought about it. What do you mean practice everything? But what he meant was, most of us do things. We do the laundry, we do our homework, we do our work for our career and so on. But the moment we view it as practice, we're aiming to refine or improve it. And by doing that, it pulls us deeper into the moment.

Cali Alpert:
Do you have a daily practice outside of the mindfulness that you just described that you live with every day in terms of a meditation practice?

Dan Millman:
I was introduced in Melbourne, Australia as an American who's an expert in mindfulness. And the first thing I said to the audience was that my wife would beg to differ because, after I do the dishes, the pots, she always finds a spot I missed. So, I'm still practicing. But really, daily life is my practice now. It's not separate from daily life. I used to think I knew what spirit was. It was something special, elevated, higher than. But now, everywhere I look, I see spirit. So, daily life is my spiritual practice.

Cali Alpert:
Your latest book, Peaceful Heart, Warrior Spirit, is your first memoir, your first fully non-fictional.

Dan Millman:
Exactly.

Cali Alpert:
Because your books have been shrouded in a little bit of mystery about where we're going with the fictional versus non-fiction over the years. Why now? What inspired you to write your memoir?

Dan Millman:
Well, the memoir is actually my culminating book. I don't expect to write more books. It was a really great book and the peaceful warrior... Then, my last book where I was able to reveal the story behind the story. And there were numerous reasons for writing it. One was to finally acknowledge my lineage and those master teachers who helped influence my life and work. Another was to establish my creds, because many people imagined me as this young athlete, met this old guy in the gas station. Now, he teaches. But there's much more than 20 years of intensive preparation and a certain breadth of experience.

But I wouldn't have written the book yet for those two reasons, because we all have our stories. I believe our story is our treasure. Everyone has a story that's unique. There's not a single story on the planet exactly like yours or mine or anyone else's. But I wrote it to shed light on the spiritual quest, most of all, because these four different teachers had radically different approaches. One was more technology-oriented, inner work, and a brilliant array of exercises toward enlightenment. The second was more of the guru, as I call him, was more a surrender to the divine directly in the form of a transcendent being. And then, the warrior priest and then the sage all had their own approaches and all served my own evolution. Now, some people may go, "Oh, I wish I had those kinds of teachers." But in a way, they do. That's why I wrote the book, because they can experience some of the reasons I was attracted to them and the reasons I moved on.

Cali Alpert:
So, do we get to talk about the spoiler alert for people that are watching and listening today that haven't yet read the book?

Dan Millman:
Sure. It's in the preface of the book. My editor said, maybe we should put it at the end. I said, no, it has to be in the preface. I have to let people know. Because they say, well, wait a minute, you mentioned four mentors. Where is Socrates? Was he one of the four? Why didn't you mention him? So, I have to confess, in a sense, that Socrates was a character based on a real old guy I met in a service station about 3:00 in the morning. But he was a character who appeared in the book just as Daniel's son had Mr. Miyagi in The Karate Kid or Frodo had Gandalf in Lord of the Rings or King Arthur had Merlin in Camelot. So, we each had our student-mentor relationship. So, Socrates was someone I created in order to convey the teachings that I thought maybe some people might enjoy.

Cali Alpert:
I think it's a big reveal and a big tickle for a lot of people that have read your books and identified with Socrates and now are learning that this was really you, is that right?

Dan Millman:
Well, as I say, as I write it in the preface, Socrates is absolutely real. Dan Millman, however, is a fictional character. So, they had Socrates all along. And I have to speak with my own authority now. The time has come at my advanced age to not... I don't parrot the words of my former teachers. They open doors of insight. And in a way, I couldn't have written Peaceful Warrior without Socrates. And in fact, in the new book, I have some dialogues with him that are fanciful but fun, where we debrief, my meetings with each of the four mentors, Soc appears.
So, he became tremendously useful to me, because when I wrote it, I was 34 years old. And I don't think people really wanted to hear what Dan Millman had to say. But by playing the naive student, I was able to draw forth a deeper part of myself. So, he became my muse and, in a sense, a mentor to me and to my readers. So, in a way, I hope it won't be too disappointing to people. From the start, I said Peaceful Warrior was a blend of autobiography with some fictional elements. And so, it's just refreshing now, with my final book, I was able to lay it all out there, the real story behind the story. And yeah, it feels good. I wouldn't change a word.

Cali Alpert:
Some might say that you were wise behind your years. Where is the line between you digging into wisdom that you already had and maybe you didn't consciously know you had to write that and your creativity? They're not really that separable, perhaps, right?

Dan Millman:
Good point.

Cali Alpert:
So, you might've had a lot more wisdom and knowledge and insight in writing at such a young age than you realized you did.

Dan Millman:
Yes. And all my training and the training 10 years with the two first two mentors opened up many doors. So, I was ready to write it. It took shape over seven years, working and leaving it for a year and then working some more. And that's just the mysterious shaping of one's life. I don't take direct credit. I don't believe in praise or blame. I think we're each doing what we're here to do. I did what I was hardwired to do. And no praise is necessary. I think I really believe that we're all just doing what we do. And so, I was able to write Peaceful Warrior. Notably, I didn't write another book for 10 years because, as much pressure as there was from my publisher, "Write another book, people are liking this," but I didn't feel I had anything new to say until I met the warrior priest, the third mentor, that I was so excited about all this new information, that I started writing almost a book a year.

And that's just how it unfolded in my case. But I do want to say we all have access. Some peoples call it the Akashic record, but we all have access to wisdom once we have the free attention and we pull ourselves out of the ruminations and captured by our inner wonderings about, what am I going to do about my relationship and my body and my finances? We're drawn into this inner world, a problematic world. And, of course, we have to handle what's in front of us. That's part of our training. That's what daily life is for. That's what eventually develops us. But we don't need to become obsessed with it.

Cali Alpert:
There are so many different quotes, many of which you have used in your teachings, about the idea that there's really one message, or one light, but many lamps. Is there one bottom line from all of your learnings, teachings, travels? Many would say that all ancient wisdom traditions, regardless of the teacher or the modality, the roads all lead to one thing. Can you name that one thing?

Dan Millman:
I think Alan Watts referred to it as a perennial of philosophy. Maybe, it was Joseph Campbell. I don't recall who said that. But it is true. Human wisdom, whether it's couched in the culture of India, the Vedanta, or the Daoists or Confucius, every culture has its gifts. Even the Hawaiian kahunas have their depth of knowledge. And so, I believe it is just our human inheritance of wisdom and perspective. What is life about? It's the answer to many existential questions that we pose. Maybe late at night, we wake up, what am I here for? What is life for?

But I will share a brief story, because Aldous Huxley, the author of Brave New World, had his own wisdom. And in fact, as much as any westerner around his time, along with William James and a few others, he actually practiced and went to different cultures around the world and didn't just read about them, but he engaged the practices. And when he was in hospice care near death, his good friend, Huston Smith, who literally wrote the book on world religions, Huston asked him, he said all this, "Is there any way you can summarize everything you've learned from all your travels and studies?" And Professor Huxley said, "I'm a little embarrassed to say I can summarize it all in about six words. Try to be a little kinder."

And maybe, day to day in our own lives, maybe it comes down to that. Maybe, if we need to distill it and boil it down, all the spiritual terminology for inner work and sophisticated knowledge, the question is, are you kind? We're sitting here in the Ram Dass library, and I remember Ram Dass used to say, "Oh, you think you're enlightened? Go visit your parents. And if you can be kind to them, then maybe you've learned something." And so, perhaps, it comes down to simple things in this moment.

Cali Alpert:
So, I have three questions that I like to ask everybody who visits us here on Dropping In. The first one is I'd like to grant you one wish for our viewers and our listeners. What would you wish for them?

Dan Millman:
I would wish that they begin to trust the process of their life unfolding. See, I'm not here for people to trust me. I'm here to help them trust themselves. And to do that, just stop comparing themselves with other people, which is a disrespect for our own life, our own process. When I taught gymnastics, I found that some people learned somersaults quicker than others. But those who often took longer to learn it learned it better than those who learned it faster. So, we need to trust our own way of learning, our own way of living. I think that's one important element in our lives.

Cali Alpert:
What would you wish for yourself?

Dan Millman:
My wishes are fulfilled, all of them. Right now, this is the perfect moment.

Cali Alpert:
And finally, what would you like our viewers and listeners to take away? One thing to take away from our conversation today, if anything.

Dan Millman:
Yes, I hope they take away exactly what they need, because it's like a Rorschach inkblot or a cloud in the sky. We each take meaning. And one thing I've said or you've said will stand out for one person, and another thing will stand out for another. And in fact, the same person may listen to this conversation at different times in their life and hear different things. So, I have no agenda of what they should take out of it.

Cali Alpert:
If people would like to find out more about you, where can they find you?

Dan Millman:
Well, thank you for asking. Probably, the best place to stop by, to drop in, would be peacefulwarrior.com. And there's quite a bit there, a free life purpose calculator and things like that. I like to offer value for people. So, anyway, that's the best place to drop in, if they want to be in contact or join my email list, get my newsletter.

Cali Alpert:
This has been such a pleasure. I want to thank you so much for making the time and joining me today.

Dan Millman:
You're very welcome.

Cali Alpert:
Thank you so much.

Dan Millman:
It's been a pleasure.

Cali Alpert:
Thanks for dropping in with Omega Institute. If you like what you hear, tell your friends and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps new listeners find us. If you'd like to see what we look like, watch the video version of Dropping In on Omega's YouTube channel. Dropping In is made possible in part by the support of Omega members. Omega members enjoy a host of beneficial experiences when they donate to help sustain Omega's programming. To learn more, visit eomega.org/membership. And check out our many online learning opportunities, featuring your favorite teachers and thought leaders at eomega.org/online learning. I'm Cali Alpert, producer and host of Dropping In. Our video editor is Grannell Knox. The music and mix are by Scott Mueller. Thanks for dropping in.