Cali Alpert:
Welcome to Dropping In, from Omega Institute, a podcast that explores the many ways to awaken the best in the human spirit. I'm Cali Alpert. Dropping in today, Qigong master Mingtong Gu. He is the founder of the Chi Center near Santa Fe, and was honored as the Qigong Master of the Year by the 13th World Congress for Qigong and Traditional Chinese Medicine in 2011. Mingtong is a sought-after speaker, healer, and teacher, and is also the author of several books and many online programs, including the Pure Qi series, that translates the ancient teachings of Wisdom Healing Qigong for contemporary times. Welcome Master Mingtong. Thank you for dropping in virtually today. How are you doing?

Mingtong Gu:
Thank you, Cali. I'm doing well, thank you. I'm so looking forward to this conversation.

Cali Alpert:
As am I. So let's start with a simple question, and I say that with a smile. What is energy and where does it live?

Mingtong Gu:
Good question to begin with, right? So it's a continuous exploration beyond any definition of what is energy. So it's a deeper recognition. Everything is made of energy. All existence, all life is made of energy, especially this body is made of energy. The cell is made of energy. The particle is made of energy. Even our mind is made of energy. You can, as a human being, our mind, our consciousness can establish this relationship with energy. And this relationship with energy is affecting all experience as who you are. All the functioning, including your physical health, emotional experience as well, mental, spiritual, experience of life in general. So how do you cultivate this relationship? That is what we do in Qigong. So not only become more aware, but intentionally, purposefully cultivating this capacity of working with energy, and to enhance all aspects of who we are, all aspects of life, including health, which is a foundation of life.

Cali Alpert:
So speaking of cultivating our relationship with energy, for a lot of cultures and for a lot of humans, we're locked in the five sensory way of thinking. That's our relationship, is with things that are more tangible, palpable, and things that tend to be more ethereal or intangible are harder for many to ground and to believe in, number one. So for someone who's never really even had a conversation like this, or thought about this premise before, what's sort of the baseline for even getting to getting familiar with the concept of energy and all the things that we can't really touch and feel and see, and hear and smell and taste?

Mingtong Gu:
Right. Yeah, you bring up a really good point. It's like this, most energy of the universe is invisible. What is visible? What is physical? Nowadays, we know according to quantum physics, only 4% of the universe is physical, measurable, tangible. The rest of the universe, 96% is invisible. That invisible power, we call the spiritual dimension of the universe. So traditionally we're speaking of faith, you're just believing something, right? Because you cannot measure, you cannot touch. You cannot see, right? So it depends on faith. So Qigong is taking a different kind of process, for you to discover beyond the five sensory perception. You still can't experience it, but you have to go beyond your limiting capacity and the way we've grown up, believing only what you see. Science, believing only what can be measured. Right? But now we know the truth is much bigger.

Mingtong Gu:
The reality is much deeper than that. So the way we start, in Qigong, is really pay attention. Yeah. It's literally divide being awareness. Awareness. So awareness is beyond just five sensory perceptions. Yeah. You become more aware, not only the intense sensation feeling of your body. This is, relatively, for example, if you're sick, if you have pain, you have symptoms, you can be aware of that, yeah? But then there's also subtle sensation feeling, beyond intense discomfort. It just is more like energetic awareness, much subtle. So when you pay attention to your own body, you're noticing there's some existence beyond what you can identify as just physical, yeah? So from that awareness, from that direct experience, you start to open to this possibility of energetic existence, beyond the physically defined, so to speak. So in this exploration, your perception continues growing, growing.

Mingtong Gu:
So simple guidance we share again and again, is noticing all the sensation feeling inside of you, both comfortable, uncomfortable, both intense and subtle, both familiar and the new, and also open to the unknown. That's the invitation, open to the unknown. So whatever you've known inside of you is based on your history, based on your trained perception, which is still limited, right? But your mind can say to yourself, "Oh, I can be more open this moment, to unknown beyond what I know." That's exciting! That's kind of really exciting, it's human nature to want to know, want to explore. So this exploration, again, your perception continues growing, continues growing. That is different from believing something or not, assuming something or not, yeah. I would define something or not. So it's like, it's this beautiful process of self-discovery, discovery of the nature of all existence. Simply asking the questions, like what is the source of life?

Cali Alpert:
What a simple question.

Mingtong Gu:
Right. So-

Cali Alpert:
That's a good one for the dinner table.

Mingtong Gu:
Exactly. That's the question, it's like leading to all this exploration, including what is the source of healing? What is the source of life? Yeah?

Cali Alpert:
I love the idea that what we don't know, especially based on that earlier statistic of 4% versus the 96%, that that 96% represents what we don't know, or at least what we can't know with our five senses, our usual perception, that in that might lie more answers and more meaning than the 4% that we're familiar with. I think that people could find that very exciting.

Mingtong Gu:
Absolutely. From the Qigong point of view, not only the universe is made of energy, but also all the phenomena is an expression of this amazing transformation of energy. Energy can take different forms, from one form to formless, yeah? From formless to another form. Yeah. So this is a continuous transformation. It's like this dance, this magical dance of the universe. We call it creation, but it's literally a transformation, from formless to form, from one form to another form. To tap into that magic is like, again, it's the most exciting thing, the most exciting thing. So noticing whatever form we're experiencing, it's important. It's important. On one hand, that's the only thing, most times, we can identify. Yeah. Identify with that. But on the other hand, we are recognizing the form has a limitation.

Cali Alpert:
It sounds like, in some ways, when you talk about the formlessness and beauty of what Qigong represents, that Qigong is a leap of faith, to start with. And it makes me wonder if you ever had that moment early on, before you were exposed to Qigong and different wisdom traditions, what your relationship was with the unknown, and with formlessness and with energy, as opposed to more concrete, physical, material experience.

Mingtong Gu:
Yeah. Good question. So I think both is true for me when I started. In the spiritual dimension, when I received the teaching, even in the beginning, I was reading the book by my teacher, grand master, which is in Chinese. So I just intuitively feel, what he is teaching was true, is true. That's like intuitive feeling. I didn't have a direct experience yet. That's kind of intuitive feeling, the deeper knowing that's like beyond faith. Beyond just like a leap of faith. It's just kind of somehow invoking, awakening, the deeper intuition within us. So that is like, this is when natural things happened in the beginning for me, just feel like this spiritual connection, spiritual knowing, spiritual truth, so to speak. Yeah.

Cali Alpert:
Did that happen spontaneously, or was that informed by something? When you first started experiencing that?

Mingtong Gu:
It's hard to pinpoint one exact thing, because in my life I was, I think from a young age on, I was kind of seeking. I was identifying myself as a seeker. I didn't kind of grow up as kind of religious kind of ways, it's like curious about these big questions. Even at a time when I was young, I didn't know how to formulate a question, until I went to graduate school as an art student. So asking these deeper questions, it was a natural thing for me. Yeah. So then when I connected with his teaching, realizing there's kind of an intuitive resonance, a deeper seeking inside of me, kind of connecting with this ancient wisdom he's sharing with us, became very natural, so to speak. Yeah? But on the other hand, my intellect was still strong, right?

Mingtong Gu:
Still strong. For example, I had disease, chronic disease, including sclerosis, asthma, conditions. So I learned to live with it, from childhood, and everybody told me these are incurable diseases. I have to live with them for the rest of my life. So I didn't have even any hope, thinking I can heal these diseases. Until I went to the medicine-less Qigong hospital in China. Then everybody told me they healed from this condition, that condition, all these incurable conditions, they showed me all these medical test results, before and afterwards, right? So in the beginning, I didn't believe them. I was like, That's impossible," right? Even though I read this story before I went to the medicine-less Qigong hospital, I think of them as like antidote stories. Something may happen occasionally to some people, right? But not me, right?

Mingtong Gu:
But after a while being there, everybody is telling me this healing story. You think of them as like a miracle. Impossible, right? But then just being there long enough, through my own practice, my own direct experience, it's like a gradual process, open to this possibility. I'm starting to consider, this is not only possible, this is important. And this is serious. Then I'm realizing from the approach of especially my teacher, who is a doctor. Yeah. Professionally trained in Western medicine. And so his desire is not only wanting to see the evidence of this ancient wisdom of Qigong applying to healing of these incurable conditions, but he wants to see this internal alchemy, like completing this process. That means completing in a physical level. And that started to intrigue me, I started realizing, "Oh, that is the important piece of the spiritual dimension of Qigong." It's not just, "Oh, practical, heal the disease." It's just from a spiritual point of view, that is the completion of this alchemy, completion of the transformation.

Mingtong Gu:
So I started to take it very seriously. So within about two years, I was able to recover totally from both asthma and sclerosis. So that gave me another level of confidence, and also commitment, and purposefulness with everything we are doing. So the tendency we often have is, "Oh, this is spiritual and this is practical. These two are separate." Yeah. Then we kind of continue this black and white, continue to feel this gap between these two aspects of who we are, aspects of life. So what I love about Qigong is, that really helped me, now this is my approach, helping all the students, it's bringing these two together. So the way I approach is healing and awakening is inseparable. It's the same process. The same process. And you can think of healing is, on one hand, it's the outcome of this spiritual process of working with the energy of the universe, which is the source of life, source of creation, source of existence. On the other hand, yeah. It's like it's a completion of the spiritual process, and that's really exciting.

Cali Alpert:
So your point about alchemy, and reintegrating that separation, or that perceived separation between spiritual and material, or earthly or physical, whatever words we want to use, what do you think is the biggest culprit for us being out of alignment with ourselves?

Mingtong Gu:
Mm. Yeah.

Cali Alpert:
And at the core of a lot of illness.

Mingtong Gu:
Yeah. That's one of the most important questions we ask, again and again, from all these years of exploration, including my own personal practice of 30 years, and teaching 20 years now, working with the tens of thousands of students with all kind of challenges, has come back to really one of the most important insights is, our disconnection with our own body. The disconnection of mind and the body, with so much in the head. With so much in the virtual world of the mind. And especially now the new technology, including the computer. Yeah. Makes it worse. So as a result, basically, I feel like we're living in this condition of homelessness. Homelessness. The mind is lost. The spirit is lost, without coming back, connecting with this body. So my emphasis is on addressing all these challenges, including disease and health challenges, emotional issues, including all relationship problems, feelings of isolation, even the collective issues in the social, cultural, political, economical dimensions.

Mingtong Gu:
It's literally boiled down to, it is healing of this disconnection. Healing of this disconnection. Simply put, it's when the mind and body is disconnected. Yeah. And you can imagine the consequence of that. It's just, first of all, this internal disconnection is causing the internal disfunction.

Cali Alpert:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mingtong Gu:
Internal conflict. Yeah. Internal dissatisfaction. And eventually you are leading to dysfunction, I mean disease. Disease. Yeah. And from that internal disconnection, naturally we feel disconnected with each other, disconnected with mother earth, disconnected with life. So this is unspoken, underlying dissatisfaction from disconnection.

Cali Alpert:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And so universal, isn't it?

Mingtong Gu:
So universal. And it's like, it's so intangible. It's like difficult to put a finger onto it.

Cali Alpert:
Mm.

Mingtong Gu:
But I feel it's like, by recognizing them, one example, especially at times right now we're in, we're experiencing the pandemic, and energetically, it's literally a collective trauma we're experiencing.

Cali Alpert:
Yes.

Mingtong Gu:
Beyond the complexity, beyond analysis, but energetically, it's a trauma. So what's happening is, we're experiencing the intense stress, traumatic stress we're experiencing, but the mind is continuously living its own virtual worlds. Stories, the news, the numbers, all the mental stress, projections, worries, and so on, without realizing the body is carrying all the stress.

Mingtong Gu:
Yeah. Without realizing it. That's the issue. So when the body carries all the stress, what happens? Over time, the body's going to give up. Say, "No more. I cannot handle any more." Then suddenly, we are diagnosed with all the whatever diseases, we're kind of shocked, "Why me? Why is this happening?" As if it's happened overnight, without realizing the stress the body is carrying is not only the years of the last couple years, but last couple decades, your last 30, 50, 70 years, you have your life, the body carries all the stress.

Mingtong Gu:
We are not aware of it. We ignore it. We dismiss it. Then we're blaming someone else. Yeah. Or blaming something else. Then we give this body to the doctor, say, "Hey, take care of this. I have no idea what's going on." So imagine this pattern, this way of life, it's infusing to every aspect of life from that place of disconnection. So as a result, we continuously feel as a victim of something, victim of someone, victim of life. We don't know how to take responsibility. Yeah. We don't know how to listen in to our body. We don't know how to connect with deeper power, deeper wisdom.

Mingtong Gu:
So that continued expression, expressing all kinds of symptoms, problems in personal collective life. So my main purpose here is to share this most important message. It's to heal this disconnection, our own mind and body, and claiming this moment, you have a body. And this is the only body you have, for the whole life. And you have to make a choice. What are you going to do with this body? Beyond any story, any history, even any diagnosis. So we learn to love this body again. We learn to be intimate, connecting with this body again. And often I use an analogy, you're establishing a new relationship with your body, from a friendship to dating relationship-

Cali Alpert:
To marriage.

Mingtong Gu:
To engagement, eventually, to marriage, if you choose to. Right? So actually, this is a very, I think one of the most beautiful metaphors of Qigong. Qigong is about cultivating the union of heaven and earth. But when we say heaven and earth, we think of the heaven out there, the earth out there, but they're deeply inside of us, the heaven and earth within us is the mind and body.

Cali Alpert:
Can you speak to the idea, to your point about integration and how all of this energy, divinity, alchemy lives inside of us, that there's a concept in Qigong of sort of subtraction, peeling away layers, getting back in touch with your deepest core and essence, as opposed to learning, taking on assuming, adding to?

Mingtong Gu:
Mm. Beautifully said. So there's two aspects we continue coming back, again and again, and discovering experience. So one is wholeness, emphasizing the wholeness. That means inclusiveness. That means every aspect of yourself, physical, emotional, mental, spiritual, and the power familiar and unfamiliar, comfortable, uncomfortable. Yeah. All aspects of who you are, as part of your wholeness. Yeah. Allowing this inclusiveness, allowing this coexistence, even in the emotional dimension, when you pay attention, you can feel simultaneously the coexistence of being happy and feeling pain. Yeah. And the emotion of fear as well as the emotion of courage, same time. These can coexist. It's not like black and white, it has to be exclusive, have to push this away in order to experience that. Yeah.

Cali Alpert:
It's having the and. Using and versus an or.

Mingtong Gu:
Exactly. Yeah. So that is one aspect. So the Qigong approach is always coming back to the coexistence of form and formlessness. So when you go into that direction, you continue to be able to embrace, oh, both form, formless, uncomfortable and comfortable, limiting, unlimited, and the visible, invisible, the tangible, intangible. So it's like you continue expanding, expanding, opening to the wholeness. Yeah. So in the tangible application of healing, basically, it's like any parts of your body, when it's diagnosed as a disease, what that means is that the energy is not working with a wholeness of the entire system. So everything we do, slow movement, slow sound, slow meditation, is to connect with this energy. You may label it as diseased, but actually it's a life force. So you learn to let go of the label of good and bad, right and wrong. You start to connect with this energy as a life force, and gradually open this energy to communicate with the rest of the body.

Mingtong Gu:
Yeah. Rest of the energy existence. So then eventually, you're programming this energy to this wholeness again, come back to wholeness again. So not just balance. Yeah. Beyond just balance A, B, how balanced? It's like this family, able to communicate again, coming back to harmony again, wholeness again. So that is like such a simple, but beautiful, important direct process. So it's again, awakening to the wholeness.

Mingtong Gu:
Then the second aspect is when you go in deeper, on the surface you may experience symptoms, pain, discomfort, even emotions such as fear, anxiety, anger, sadness, and so on. Then you go further, deeper, realizing, "Oh, energy has only two patterns. One is contracting. Another is opening." So when energy is contracting, when we're experiencing all this discomfort, pain, physical issues, emotional issues, even mental issues, when the same energy's opening up again, then your whole experience is transformed, shifted. The emotion's shifting from fear to creativity, from worry to confidence, from anger to courage, from sadness to compassion, from hurt to love and joy. Yeah. So realizing, "Oh, it's beyond the label of good and bad, energy is just a force inside of us." So then you go deeper into the essence of energy, realizing that's the same energy of creation.

Cali Alpert:
Let's talk about the connection between Qigong and the idea of fostering more joy, and connection, and creativity in one's life. How are those two connected?

Mingtong Gu:
Yeah. So when you recognize, the bottom line is when you recognize everything is energy. When you're able to not only become more aware of the energy, especially in the body and around you in the universe, and cultivating the energy, awakening to the wholeness, awakening to the essence, then you're naturally cultivating this quality of energy or function of energy. When this energy wants to move, energy wants to connect. Energy wants to realize its full potential, including creativity. So these experiences just start to naturally arise, when the energy's awakening, this experience of joy, suddenly this is the inner joy without depending on the circumstances. Yeah. Outside of you, without depending on the story of your history. So it's like the energy inside of you awakening, opening, specifically like the energy of your heart. Yeah. Expanding, opening, and you start to feel this inner, I call this inner unconditional joy.

Mingtong Gu:
Yeah. And they at times can be blissful. Yeah. And doesn't really depend on story. Yeah. So that is one aspect. Then similarly is when the energy of the heart's expanding open, you just naturally feel connected, not only within you, but also connected with life around you. And so this connection is just naturally, it's become a foundation for life, and come out of that is the experience of love. Yeah. More unconditional love. You just love life. And you love the existence of the universe in spite of imperfection. Yeah. Because energetically it's like, you are part of this, and how could you not love it? Yeah? So this is like both the wholeness, the essence. Yeah. You become the foundation for your experience for joy, and for love. And the creativity is like, in the morning when you wake up, the energy is like, it's like deep inside of you.

Mingtong Gu:
Especially speaking of the Ching energy, the kundalini energy, when the energy's awakening, it's like, you couldn't help, ready for the day. Feel the deeper impulse, deeper creativity. "I want to do something. I want to accomplish something. I want to experience something in this life." Yeah. Instead of feeling, being a victim, feeling the hopelessness, feeling depression. Yeah. Like depression is nothing but just the energy is suppressed inside of you, basically. So when energy awakening opens, yeah. You couldn't help being creative. So it's not like you have to force yourself. You have to make all the plans, all the goals. You become just naturally creative. And I think as you mentioned we're all born as artists. As artists. Artistry is this expression, not just expression, it's just like this energy quality of creativity. You don't have to do drawing, painting, sculpture, or anything. It's just creativity of life, just naturally coming out of you, basically. Come out of you. And I think that's really also very important in my process, as you noticed.

Cali Alpert:
I have noticed. Do you walk around in a state of joy, most every moment of every day?

Mingtong Gu:
I will say my baseline is pretty happy, pretty joyful, pretty open, pretty creative. Sometimes I have to control myself a little bit.

Cali Alpert:
So finally, I want to ask you three quick-round questions that I like to ask every guest here on Dropping In. First, I'd like to grant you one wish for our listeners, what would it be?

Mingtong Gu:
No matter what's happening in your life, no matter what's happening in your health, knowing the gift of healing, the gift of energy, the gift of life, and everything you're looking for. Health, happiness, connection, purpose, abundance, freedom. It's all within you already.

Cali Alpert:
What is something you wish for yourself?

Mingtong Gu:
Continuously open. Open to unknown, open to this magic of life, this whole spectrum of human experience, from most painful to most blissful. Able to embrace it all and think. That's just my wish for myself.

Cali Alpert:
And finally, what is the most important offering or tip you'd like listeners to take away from our conversation today?

Mingtong Gu:
Mm. Again, connecting with your body. You can discover the whole. The physical, emotional, mental, spiritual dimension of yourself, as this precious human being who has all the potential of realizing your highest vision of yourself and your life. And there's no better time to explore, discover, realize that, than now, in human history.

Cali Alpert:
Thank you so much for spending this time with me today. It's been such a joy to speak with you. If our listeners would like to learn more about you and any of your endeavors, where can they find you?

Mingtong Gu:
Thank you. Thank you. I enjoy so much our conversation, our exploration. And the best way nowadays is to take advantage of the internet, the technology. And that is one of the gifts, I feel profoundly grateful. Through the new technology, now we can discover and connect with the ancient wisdom. So our website is chicenter.com, C-H-I center.com. We have a lot of free gifts you can receive when you go to the website, and we are here continuously committed, supporting you, whatever stage of your journey of healing, awakening, including appreciating the opportunity of collaborating with Omega and the amazing community, amazing visions. So I'm so grateful for this opportunity as well. Thank you. Thank you.

Cali Alpert:
Thank you so much. Thanks for dropping in with Omega Institute. If you like what you hear, tell your friends, and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps new ears find us. Dropping In is made possible in part by the support of Omega members. To learn more, visit eomega.org/membership, and check out our many online learning opportunities, featuring your favorite teachers and thought leaders, at eomega.org/onlinelearning. I'm Cali Alpert, producer and host of Dropping In. The music and mix are by Scott Mueller. Thanks for dropping in.